Future Redbirds

Give it to me straight

17 Responses to “Give it to me straight”

1. 

   Luke W, on October 15th, 2007 at 2:07 pm Said:

   While I am leary and nervous about Joel keeping it up for a whole season (let alone 2), I think it is too early to say that this is a horrible signing. The sad fact is that average pitching starts at this price anymore. In fact there are worse pitchers making more then 6.5 right now. That being said I can see both sides of the spectrum, could Thompson do what Pinero is going to do this year for a fraction of the price? Time will tell.
2. 

   BigJawnMize, on October 15th, 2007 at 2:13 pm Said:

   Oh My Gawd Noooooooo! Give him one year at $10 million and it is not as bad of a deal. I think Mozeliak is trying to make the situation here so bad that none of the other canidates will want the job. Seriously how much damage can he do in the next week…
3. 

   Brett S, on October 15th, 2007 at 3:06 pm Said:

   It’s only a bad deal if guys like Pineiro are getting less money. It’s not a long deal, nor it is horrible from a price standpoint.

   Weaver got 8.5 last year…Marquis got 8.0…Suppan got 10.5. Pineiro is getting 6.5 and hes the same pitcher as those three. It’s the market.

   If Joel gives us 30+ starts and a 4.50 ERA its a nice deal in today’s baseball world. People need to adjust their expectations accordingly to the market now.
4. 

   picklefork, on October 15th, 2007 at 4:44 pm Said:

   On the August 1st, Joel would have ran thru the streets of STL naked if the Cards agreed to his mutual 08 option for 4M.

   63 innings later playing nearly meaningless baseball he has 13M in guarantees.

   I worry that John Mo is trying to do too much to show he deserves the job and will limit what we can do when we get a legit GM in there.

   16M+ for Joel and Russ Springer……could be ugly.
5. 

   azruavatar, on October 15th, 2007 at 4:54 pm Said:

   “The sad fact is that average pitching starts at this price anymore.”

   Pineiro isn’t average. He’s replacement level meaning that his services should cost nothing more than the cheapest available talent (in this case, some AAA pitcher).

   “In fact there are worse pitchers making more then 6.5 right now.”

   There are also better pitchers available for less.
6. 

   azruavatar, on October 15th, 2007 at 4:57 pm Said:

   Brett — if you try to build a rotation from the free agent market, you will lose every year. It’s not a feasible strategy monetarily nor is it a good strategy statistically. Most free agent pitchers are overpriced and overvalued because they had past success. Too many teams fail to understand how to predict success in pitchers creating contracts like Pineiro’s.
7. 

   Chris, on October 15th, 2007 at 5:44 pm Said:

   I am kind of between Brett and Az on this one. I would be puking in my mouth over the contract if the Cards had guys that were ready to start and produce at his level right now. Unfortunately, I really don’t see who the Cards could put in and be confident they would produce at his level. Granted his sample with the Cards is small, but he is a guy who is VERY talented. Who from the minors is ready to start right NOW at his level? Reyes sucked last year, so while he does have the talent it is questionable whether or not he can come back at a consistent level. Hawksworth can’t stay healthy and got rocked in AAA. Boggs had okay success at AA, would at least like to see how he performs at AAA before he can be counted on in a MLB rotation. Garcia has had health problems and probably shouldn’t be pushed to be counted on to throw 200 MLB innings. Who is the better replacement? The answer is somewhere between Reyes and an outside free agent. Do I think Joel deserves 6.5 per for good numbers through 11 starts-NO! Am I ready for a rotation of Wainright, Looper, Thompson, Reyes, Boggs-NO!

   I personally am not high at all on Thompson as a starter. His stuff just isn’t good enough consistently to go through a major league lineup 3 times. The hitters last year just didn’t swing at his sinking fastball. Plus, he couldn’t throw a good one consistently. He is an average MLB relief pitcher and a below average starter.

   I would bet that Joel will perform at NL starting pitching average performance level. I just don’t know if I would bet 6.5 million over 2 years. However, this could be a good sign that the organization is going to open up the checkbook. If the club isn’t going to raise payroll for the MLB club to at least 120 million next year then this will probably go down as another bad contract. Hopefully this spending spree will also hold true on the upcoming draft. I just hope that we The Moz doesn’t have to much input on the draft.
8. 

   Luke W, on October 15th, 2007 at 7:52 pm Said:

   “Pineiro isn’t average. He’s replacement level meaning that his services should cost nothing more than the cheapest available talent (in this case, some AAA pitcher).”

   I really don’t think he is replacement level, but if his stats show that he is during this next season then it was a horrible sign. That being said I am not ready to write him off and say that the last 63 IP was meaningless luck. I do agree that others would be cheaper but trust me there could be worse signings than this one. Time will tell.
9. 

   erik, on October 15th, 2007 at 8:51 pm Said:

   ZiPS projects Pineiro to have a 5.28 ERA. Boggs 5.49. How different are they really? Not saying Boggs will thrive, or Pineiro will be this bad but ZiPS doesn’t have the biases we have.

   the past 2 seasons Pineiro had VORP of 3.2 and 2.3, IE barely whispering above replacement level. He isn’t good. Like picklefork said, if it were the $4 mil, 1 year deal then fine. But this isn’t a good contract. there will be worse handed out this winter, to be sure. i still don’t like it.
10. 

    houstoncardinal, on October 15th, 2007 at 9:22 pm Said:

    To me the most bothersome thing is the freedom DeWitt seems to be giving Mozeliak to make these moves. 3 signings — 2 of them are overpriced and it’s been reported that he’s been discussing an extension w/ Eckstein. The Cards need a GM so that Mozeliak doesn’t take them so far down the road backwards that it costs them an extra year or two to find their way back.
11. 

    BigJawnMize, on October 16th, 2007 at 7:02 am Said:

    Why didn’t the club have one of the minor leaguers fill in for league minimum and use this money on Porcello’s signing bonus? I am crying, just crying…
12. 

    cardinal70, on October 16th, 2007 at 7:21 am Said:

    It does seem to me that, with this flurry of moves, that Mozeliak is most likely the next GM. If he’s not, hopefully the new guy is creative enough to make some moves. Maybe Pineiro will start off hot and can be flipped to someone. That’s about all we can hope for now.
13. 

    Brett S, on October 16th, 2007 at 8:04 am Said:

    I understand the consternation…but what I don’t like is when everyone says how bad moves are, but yet doesn’t offer a solution–a VIABLE solution.

    If you don’t like a move, great, but tell me what else the team should have done. I understand building your pitching staff through free agency isn’t the smartest, but what is a team supposed to do when they have like 2 “organization” arms that can pitch?? You have to have guys fill out the rotation don’t you?

    Certainly it would be great to be like the Rockies and start 4 guys who we developed. Sadly, we don’t have those guys. I know people are in love with this “go young” model–but if so be prepared to be pretty awful for some time.

    I’m not sure I’m prepared for that. I like going young–but only if the players can play. I’m not sure ours can.
14. 

    Shhh, on October 16th, 2007 at 9:28 am Said:

    It’s called rebuilding Cardinals, try it. Anyone who thinks this team is going to compete next year is crazy, they were lucky to win as many games as they did this season. Despite being in the sad NL Central they still don’t stack up talent wise to the Cubs or Brewers.

    Why not you know give money to someone lets say like Porcello who has ace potential, instead of someone who has replacement player level potential.

    People say who are you going to put in the rotation, well it really doesn’t matter because this current team isn’t going anywhere, hell go give John Thomson 300k he’ll give the same production as Pineiro more than likely.

    Just money badly spent in my opinion.
15. 

    azruavatar, on October 16th, 2007 at 10:37 am Said:

    Brett/13: Here’s several options that would have been better for the organization.

    1) Go get Matt Morris. If you pick up his contract, the Pirates wouldn’t want any significant prospect in return. It’s a one-year deal that doesn’t block anyone.

    2) Go get Colby Lewis or Chris Gissell. Lewis is one of my favorite major league underachievers who had great numbers in the minors. Gissell is someone that Liam touts on a yearly basis. Lewis is an afterthought in Oakland and Gissell is over in Japan currently.

    3) Cast a dragnet like the Nationals did last season. They snapped up every minor league free agent starter with a chance at being above replacement level. Some of them stuck, some didn’t. All in all, they were cheaper than Pineiro.

    The point is that this team isn’t going to contend with it’s current roster. Adding someone like Pineiro holds par at best. That’s just not good enough right now. There are cheaper ways to hold par. If the Cardinals were to take option 2 and one of those two guys finally figured it out and became a decent pitcher, the money saved would be immense and they’d have someone who was cost controlled for several years. The upside with everyone I’ve talked about is probably back-end of the rotation material (same as Pineiro), why not take the cheaper options even if they are somewhat less likely to pan out? Pineiro isn’t the difference between the team succeeding or not succeeding next year.
16. 

    Brett S, on October 16th, 2007 at 2:07 pm Said:

    AZ…I dont disagree. But here is the philisophical difference. The owners/powers thate be DO feel this team is going to contend. As a result, they are going to make decisions based on that.

    Personally, Im not sure this team will contend. But the division is still pretty bad. Im not ready to stink for 3-4 years. Does Pineiro mean that won’t happen? No. But if we go to the Chris Gissell’s of the world then we have decided we won’t contend.
17. 

    cariocacardinal, on October 16th, 2007 at 6:13 pm Said:

    Gissel probably has about as good chance as Pineiro of being a difference maker. Cheaper isn’t always worse.