Comments on: Daily Farm Report - 5/22/08 http://futureredbirds.com/2008/05/23/daily-farm-report-52208/ Baseball's Future in the Gateway City Wed, 11 Mar 2009 20:18:50 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=MU hourly 1 By: Beau http://futureredbirds.com/2008/05/23/daily-farm-report-52208/#comment-17507 Beau Sat, 31 May 2008 13:17:49 +0000 http://futureredbirds.wordpress.com/?p=1213#comment-17507 Oh here is the thread with Shhh. You seem to focus on one metric, Ks, to the exclusion of anything else. Eager threw 111 innings, 16 starts, almost 7 IP per game average. Eager was a starter, in contrast to JD Dew. He had an ERA of about 3.25. These are ok stats and helps explain whe MLB scouting combine ranked him 133 in the nation. He outpitched the harder throwing Daley of 2006 and Norris (drafted by the Astros in 06). In the draft, Eager fell past where he should have been drafted by a couple of rounds, showing that 29 teams had downgraded him. The Cards were probably hoping to find an undervalued talent, in draft terms. Degerman, Stavinoha, Shane Robinson, PJ Walters, Kyle Russell, Steven Hill, JD Dew, and Eager are Moneyball picks, because they played well in college, yet also had some drawbacks in the eyes of scouts. Degerman an ugly delivery, Russell an ugly swing, PJ below average fast ball velocity, Hill too small for 1B, Robinson a little rascal, Dew a reliever, Eager a high effort delivery and not enough variation in speed. For contrast, Mark Michael, Gary Daley Jr, and Boggs did not obtain good statistics in college, so were chosen because of arm strength. They were tools picks. Boggs has been great, Daley began ok, but came apart last season. So too Degerman, Russell, and Eager have disappointed, while Dew, Hill, Stavinoha, and Robinson have done well in the minors. The results of both stats picks and tools picks have been mixed. Oh here is the thread with Shhh. You seem to focus on one metric, Ks, to the exclusion of anything else.

Eager threw 111 innings, 16 starts, almost 7 IP per game average. Eager was a starter, in contrast to JD Dew. He had an ERA of about 3.25. These are ok stats and helps explain whe MLB scouting combine ranked him 133 in the nation. He outpitched the harder throwing Daley of 2006 and Norris (drafted by the Astros in 06).

In the draft, Eager fell past where he should have been drafted by a couple of rounds, showing that 29 teams had downgraded him. The Cards were probably hoping to find an undervalued talent, in draft terms.

Degerman, Stavinoha, Shane Robinson, PJ Walters, Kyle Russell, Steven Hill, JD Dew, and Eager are Moneyball picks, because they played well in college, yet also had some drawbacks in the eyes of scouts. Degerman an ugly delivery, Russell an ugly swing, PJ below average fast ball velocity, Hill too small for 1B, Robinson a little rascal, Dew a reliever, Eager a high effort delivery and not enough variation in speed.

For contrast, Mark Michael, Gary Daley Jr, and Boggs did not obtain good statistics in college, so were chosen because of arm strength. They were tools picks. Boggs has been great, Daley began ok, but came apart last season.

So too Degerman, Russell, and Eager have disappointed, while Dew, Hill, Stavinoha, and Robinson have done well in the minors. The results of both stats picks and tools picks have been mixed.

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By: Shhh http://futureredbirds.com/2008/05/23/daily-farm-report-52208/#comment-17346 Shhh Tue, 27 May 2008 13:05:44 +0000 http://futureredbirds.wordpress.com/?p=1213#comment-17346 Ok, so you still have not mentioned any stats in any posts you have made about Eager, other than saying he had fine stats. Which is completely untrue. And you continue to call him a moneyball pick, which is also completely untrue. Kid couldn't even get a 2/1 K/BB ratio and barely had a 7 K/9. For him to be a moneyball pick and be picked in the 5th round he would have to had outstanding stats, you know like Josh Dew who was drafted in the 14th round. The Cardinals would not draft a guy based purely on stats in the first 5 rounds anyways, they have a good mix of both scouting and stats. Not that this is case with Eager anyways, because he didn't put up good stats. Your comparison to Walters is also way off, Walters did have good stats. Ok, so you still have not mentioned any stats in any posts you have made about Eager, other than saying he had fine stats. Which is completely untrue. And you continue to call him a moneyball pick, which is also completely untrue. Kid couldn’t even get a 2/1 K/BB ratio and barely had a 7 K/9. For him to be a moneyball pick and be picked in the 5th round he would have to had outstanding stats, you know like Josh Dew who was drafted in the 14th round. The Cardinals would not draft a guy based purely on stats in the first 5 rounds anyways, they have a good mix of both scouting and stats. Not that this is case with Eager anyways, because he didn’t put up good stats.

Your comparison to Walters is also way off, Walters did have good stats.

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By: Beau http://futureredbirds.com/2008/05/23/daily-farm-report-52208/#comment-17345 Beau Tue, 27 May 2008 12:35:11 +0000 http://futureredbirds.wordpress.com/?p=1213#comment-17345 One difference in our opinions hinges on what constitutes fine collegiate stats. Eager was drafted down in the 5th round. (With a large compensatory round added in, this is akin to the 6th round.) In general, teams are not going to find a college player with a big tool chest at this point in the draft. Degerman had a great final season at Rice. Despite an ugly delivery, the Cards popped him at the end of the 4th round and signed him for $100K. Kyle Russell hit 28 homers or so, has an ugly swing, the Cards took him in the middle of the 4th, adjusting too for his bonus expectations. Shane Robinson hit for a fine average, but is of modest size, so we went for him at the end of the 5th. These guys are like Eager: good college stats, but with some questions, explaining why they were not drafted higher. In comparsion to Eager, Daley had lousy stats at Cal Poly, falling from about 25th among college players going into his junior season to outside the Top 100. Mitch Boggs had an era of about 5 or 6 in the Georgia bullpen. Both had good arms. Daley has struggled, Boggs has realized his potential, go figure. People are different and hard to predict. Eager lacks the upside of Daley or Boggs. But then PJ Walters has below average arm strength, yet PJ has been excellent as pro, unlike the heralded Degerman. The Cards were probably hoping Eager could be more like PJ and pitch better than his arm strength. However, in the early returns in the Midwest League, Eager has not been good. Yeah the Cards consider college stats. Ollie Marmol led Division 1 NCAA in runs scored per game (though at high scoring Univ. of Charleston). He would be a moneyball pick, like Eager. Though scouts did not like Marmol's stick, he can run and field, so the Cards hoped he can improve the hitting. If Marmol had looked good with the bat, he might have gone in rd 2 or 3. One difference in our opinions hinges on what constitutes fine collegiate stats. Eager was drafted down in the 5th round. (With a large compensatory round added in, this is akin to the 6th round.) In general, teams are not going to find a college player with a big tool chest at this point in the draft.

Degerman had a great final season at Rice. Despite an ugly delivery, the Cards popped him at the end of the 4th round and signed him for $100K. Kyle Russell hit 28 homers or so, has an ugly swing, the Cards took him in the middle of the 4th, adjusting too for his bonus expectations. Shane Robinson hit for a fine average, but is of modest size, so we went for him at the end of the 5th. These guys are like Eager: good college stats, but with some questions, explaining why they were not drafted higher.

In comparsion to Eager, Daley had lousy stats at Cal Poly, falling from about 25th among college players going into his junior season to outside the Top 100. Mitch Boggs had an era of about 5 or 6 in the Georgia bullpen. Both had good arms. Daley has struggled, Boggs has realized his potential, go figure. People are different and hard to predict.

Eager lacks the upside of Daley or Boggs. But then PJ Walters has below average arm strength, yet PJ has been excellent as pro, unlike the heralded Degerman. The Cards were probably hoping Eager could be more like PJ and pitch better than his arm strength. However, in the early returns in the Midwest League, Eager has not been good.

Yeah the Cards consider college stats. Ollie Marmol led Division 1 NCAA in runs scored per game (though at high scoring Univ. of Charleston). He would be a moneyball pick, like Eager. Though scouts did not like Marmol’s stick, he can run and field, so the Cards hoped he can improve the hitting. If Marmol had looked good with the bat, he might have gone in rd 2 or 3.

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By: Shhh http://futureredbirds.com/2008/05/23/daily-farm-report-52208/#comment-17339 Shhh Tue, 27 May 2008 03:07:28 +0000 http://futureredbirds.wordpress.com/?p=1213#comment-17339 You have yet to show that Eager put up good stats. And let me assure you the "moneyball" philosophy does not include wins as a stat that matters and doesn't adhere to "he threw some innings and won some games" so he must be good. The Cardinals front office is one of the most sabermetric friendly ones in the all of the MLB and you better believe they do not use wins as stat to evaluate a pitcher. The Cards did draft Eager for a reason and all evidence points to a scout falling in love with him, for whatever reason. There is no evidence at all that he anything close to a "moneyball" pitcher because he did NOT rack up fine stats at Cal Poly. You have yet to show that Eager put up good stats. And let me assure you the “moneyball” philosophy does not include wins as a stat that matters and doesn’t adhere to “he threw some innings and won some games” so he must be good. The Cardinals front office is one of the most sabermetric friendly ones in the all of the MLB and you better believe they do not use wins as stat to evaluate a pitcher.

The Cards did draft Eager for a reason and all evidence points to a scout falling in love with him, for whatever reason. There is no evidence at all that he anything close to a “moneyball” pitcher because he did NOT rack up fine stats at Cal Poly.

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By: Beau http://futureredbirds.com/2008/05/23/daily-farm-report-52208/#comment-17338 Beau Tue, 27 May 2008 02:39:58 +0000 http://futureredbirds.wordpress.com/?p=1213#comment-17338 Eager had 10 wins, two shy of the Cal Poly record. His velocity was 90-91, and he has a hard slider. A violent delivery and does not change speeds much. Comes after hitters. The year before, the Cards had selected Daley from the same school. Daley throws harder, but had less success at Cal Poly. Of the two men, Daley is the toolsier, while Eager was more successful in college, with lesser pitches. Daley was one of the more highly anticipated collegians going into his junior season, coming off a good showing in the Alaska summer league. Boras chose to rep Daley and Boras is very selective, wanting potential bonus babies. Boras would NEVER rep a boring guy like Eager. The Cards drafted Eager for a reason. It was not that he had good stuff and impressed a scout. It was because he threw some innings and won some games. That is what Moneyball is, favoring results that seem to exceed tools. Daley was the opposite; strong arm strength, poorer results. The Cards must have gambled that wood bat baseball would help a hardthrower like Daley. Eager had 10 wins, two shy of the Cal Poly record. His velocity was 90-91, and he has a hard slider. A violent delivery and does not change speeds much. Comes after hitters.

The year before, the Cards had selected Daley from the same school. Daley throws harder, but had less success at Cal Poly. Of the two men, Daley is the toolsier, while Eager was more successful in college, with lesser pitches. Daley was one of the more highly anticipated collegians going into his junior season, coming off a good showing in the Alaska summer league. Boras chose to rep Daley and Boras is very selective, wanting potential bonus babies. Boras would NEVER rep a boring guy like Eager.

The Cards drafted Eager for a reason. It was not that he had good stuff and impressed a scout. It was because he threw some innings and won some games. That is what Moneyball is, favoring results that seem to exceed tools. Daley was the opposite; strong arm strength, poorer results. The Cards must have gambled that wood bat baseball would help a hardthrower like Daley.

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By: Shhh http://futureredbirds.com/2008/05/23/daily-farm-report-52208/#comment-17337 Shhh Tue, 27 May 2008 02:12:40 +0000 http://futureredbirds.wordpress.com/?p=1213#comment-17337 "he racked up fine stats at Cal Poly" Um, when? “he racked up fine stats at Cal Poly”

Um, when?

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By: Beau http://futureredbirds.com/2008/05/23/daily-farm-report-52208/#comment-17333 Beau Tue, 27 May 2008 00:47:11 +0000 http://futureredbirds.wordpress.com/?p=1213#comment-17333 Eager is moneyball, because he racked up fine stats at Cal Poly, but he's not very good from a tools viewpoint. He has a high effort delivery and was said to resemble Rob Dibble, without a plus fastball. Given his amateur background, Eager should do well at Quad Cities. The reason he is not doing well: he does not have quality pitches. At least Maiques and Daley have strong arms, even if there control has deserted them. Eager is moneyball, because he racked up fine stats at Cal Poly, but he’s not very good from a tools viewpoint. He has a high effort delivery and was said to resemble Rob Dibble, without a plus fastball. Given his amateur background, Eager should do well at Quad Cities. The reason he is not doing well: he does not have quality pitches. At least Maiques and Daley have strong arms, even if there control has deserted them.

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By: Shhh http://futureredbirds.com/2008/05/23/daily-farm-report-52208/#comment-17321 Shhh Mon, 26 May 2008 13:01:08 +0000 http://futureredbirds.wordpress.com/?p=1213#comment-17321 Eager is a factor of Moneyball? Really? You think so? He struckout 7.07 per 9 while his team as a whole struckout 7.26 per 9. Thats not Moneyball to me. He also didn't have the greatest control, but at least he was better than his team average there. He also had more airouts than groundouts and he was the only Cardinal pitcher drafted in first day last season that had a GO/AO lower than 2. And in 2006 he showed absolutely nothing walking more guys than he struckout. Me thinks Mr. Eager got a scout to fall in love with him. Curious why you think he is a factor of Moneyball. Eager is a factor of Moneyball? Really? You think so? He struckout 7.07 per 9 while his team as a whole struckout 7.26 per 9. Thats not Moneyball to me. He also didn’t have the greatest control, but at least he was better than his team average there. He also had more airouts than groundouts and he was the only Cardinal pitcher drafted in first day last season that had a GO/AO lower than 2. And in 2006 he showed absolutely nothing walking more guys than he struckout. Me thinks Mr. Eager got a scout to fall in love with him.

Curious why you think he is a factor of Moneyball.

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By: Beau http://futureredbirds.com/2008/05/23/daily-farm-report-52208/#comment-17319 Beau Mon, 26 May 2008 11:32:09 +0000 http://futureredbirds.wordpress.com/?p=1213#comment-17319 Luhnow himself observed Daley throw. Daley has Scott Boras as his agent. Boras is selective about representing amateurs. Scott's scouts flagged Daley as a ML arm, not just the Cards. Daley pitched well in the NYPa League and he began the 2007 season ok at Palm Beach, before falling apart. The problem seems to be that Daley has lost control and confidence. I am ok with drafting Daley on grounds of arm strength and with the hope he could learn to pitch. Degerman and Eager show the danger of Moneyball (factoring college stats over tools). Luhnow himself observed Daley throw. Daley has Scott Boras as his agent. Boras is selective about representing amateurs. Scott’s scouts flagged Daley as a ML arm, not just the Cards.

Daley pitched well in the NYPa League and he began the 2007 season ok at Palm Beach, before falling apart. The problem seems to be that Daley has lost control and confidence. I am ok with drafting Daley on grounds of arm strength and with the hope he could learn to pitch.

Degerman and Eager show the danger of Moneyball (factoring college stats over tools).

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By: rob http://futureredbirds.com/2008/05/23/daily-farm-report-52208/#comment-17281 rob Sat, 24 May 2008 07:55:15 +0000 http://futureredbirds.wordpress.com/?p=1213#comment-17281 A starting outfield of Schumaker, Ankiel and Mather sounds pretty good to me right now. I don't have much hope for Duncan, regardless of what the stats may say. And though I have hope for Barton, it's not as much as many do, because he still needs to put some polish on his game. Schumaker, on the other hand, has been greatly under-appreciated this year and I suspect (I hope) he will continue in the leadoff spot. Duncan, however, should never bat any higher then sixth, imo. A starting outfield of Schumaker, Ankiel and Mather sounds pretty good to me right now. I don’t have much hope for Duncan, regardless of what the stats may say. And though I have hope for Barton, it’s not as much as many do, because he still needs to put some polish on his game.

Schumaker, on the other hand, has been greatly under-appreciated this year and I suspect (I hope) he will continue in the leadoff spot. Duncan, however, should never bat any higher then sixth, imo.

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